The Scout Leader From Hell

or, Wow, this is incredible!

I recently received an email from a friend in the NSS. She's been around a while, and is very active in many caving activities. She sent the following message to me a short time ago. Good gracious, I hope this type of Scout Leader is in the minority out there.


Date sent:      	Tue, 17 Nov 1998 00:40:55 -0600 (CST)
		
From:      	a fellow caver

Subject:   	Caving and the scout leader from hell

To:        	jgmurphy (at) bigfoot (dot) com

Hi Tray,

I need your help in dealing with the "scout 
leader from hell".  Our  grotto first had contact 
with her a year ago, when she phoned us up.  
Ms "X" of Sebastapol called both myself 
(I was vice chair and training officer) and the grotto
chair, demanding that we take her explorer scouts caving.  
She even had a list of dates picked out for us!

Both the chair and myself spent several hours talking to 
her.  I phoned her long distance (she lives 3-1/2 hours 
from here).  She phoned me at work.  She phoned me at home.  
She e-mailed me at home.  She e-mailed me at work.  Several 
times.  She also did this with our chair.  She seened to 
think that it was our duty to take her caving.

When we suggested a commercial cave, we were told to 
"get real".  When we suggested Lava Beds National 
Monument, we were told that it wasn't "hard enough" 
for her scouts.  She wanted her scouts to do ropework in 
caves.  Finally, one of our grotto members took her caving.  
During the safety lecture, the scouts fooled around.  When 
our grotto member chided them, she was reprimanded by one of 
the parents that "kids will be kids".  When she took 
the kids into the cave, the adults left the cave!  Poor
"grotto member" was stuck with 10 kids, and 
Ms "X"!  Ms "X" thinks that her kids are 
experienced rock climbers, yet none of the kids could tie a
knot. She claims "caving experience", which is over 
20 years old. Our grotto member claims that the trip was a 
horror.

This year, it again continued.  We again got phone calls, 
with Ms "X" telling us that they would be caving 
on Nov 15, and which of us was going to escort her kids?  
She worked her way down the grotto officer list.  She 
seemed to think that she could get our grotto equipment.  
This was discussed thouroughly with our grotto, and no one 
would take her.  She was told that people had reservations 
about safety.

What happened?  Ms "X" took her kids caving anyway, ill 
equipped! She went back to the cave that they were taken to 
last year, never contacting the land owner.  Fortunately, 
the cave was gated 2 months ago, and they couldn't get in.
Ms "X" was back on the phone, calling our grotto 
equipment officer, asking for more cave locations. When told 
that the grotto had safety reservations, she ignored the 
officer.  She seemed to think that the group did fine last 
year.

Tray, how do we stop this woman?  She is the most 
agressive pushy female.  She is clearly dangerous, 
and ignores all safety precautions. One of our grotto 
members thought that there was some Scout safety 
officer we could report her to.  She is giving scouts a 
horrid name. She is clearly endangering her charges.  
Help!  What do we do?

On the flip side, I worked with the San Fernando Valley 
Council High Adventure explorer post last month.  
What a joy!  The best kids in the world.  Great leaders 
too, and I hope to see them again!

Sincerely, 

a fellow caver
NSS 22###


Well, I mulled on this overnight, then sent her this response.
Alex Sproul, NSS 8086LF, and a long-time Scouter, sent the one below it.

Date sent:     	Tue, 18 Nov 1998 22:45 -0500 (EST)
From:          	jgmurphy (at) bigfoot (dot) com
Subject:       	re: Caving and the scout leader from hell
To:            	a fellow caver
First, I'd write a letter to her, and copy it to their 
council office, attention the Scout Executive (include 
a cover letter with the council copy telling them exactly 
what you told me). Tell her in no uncertain terms that 
her behavior is unacceptable, and that you will not put up 
with it anymore, period. Don't call me anymore. Point out 
everything that went wrong, and why it was wrong. You 
could send a letter to the parents of her kids and tell 
them that she's going to get them hurt or arrested for 
trespassing if she keeps this up. Tell them all what a bad 
experience your grotto had with them last year - the 
fooling around, the lack of skills, the lack of common 
courtesy, and the complete lack of ettiquete on the part 
of the Scouts and the leader. If she calls again, call 
the Council office and demand that they put a stop to 
it. In reality, there's not much they can do with a 
loose cannon like this, but maybe they'll have someone 
who can talk to her. Don't get your hopes up. In the 
meantime, I'd get caller id and ignore her calls, or 
just hang up on her whenever or wherever she calls. Anyone 
she bad mouths you to will understand (and she will bad 
mouth you to anyone and everyone who will listen), she has 
to be that way with everyone. I'd also make sure not only 
you and your grotto is firm in their resolve to turn her 
away, but I'd get in contact with every grotto in a 200 
mile radius and put out the word. She is a control freak,
and RELENTLESS, won't take no for an answer, and is clearly 
putting excitement and thrills before safety. I'd hate to 
think what she does on rock climbing trips, and on other 
high adventure activites. You're right: she is an accident 
waiting to happen, and unfortunately, until one of her 
kids gets hurt (and she's in charge, not someone who can 
be blamed like you or a grotto member), no one will 
challenge her to a point that she will stop.
Good luck.
Tray
From:           	"Alex Sproul" 
			
	
To:          a fellow caver
Date sent:   Tue, 17 Nov 1998 23:29:26 +0000
Subject:     (Fwd) (Fwd) Caving and the scout leader from hell
Send reply to:  imo (at) caves (dot) org
Copies to:   jgmurphy (at) bigfoot (dot) com
Priority:    normal


Wow!  Leader from Hell indeed!

I think Tray has pretty well hit the nail on the 
head as far as dealing with this woman; not much 
I can add to that.  But there are also a few things 
you and your grotto can do to protect yourself from 
such harrassment in the future.

Have an 'educational' program that is structured 
and entrenched. Have a single point of contact who 
speaks for the grotto on such matters, and ensure 
that everyone else simply refers inquiries to 
that person (i.e, no end-runs allowed).

Have copies of the NSS/BSA Policy available to provide 
to inquirers, and follow these rules to the letter.  
If the Scout group is not following the rules to the 
letter, too, end of discussion.  In particular, tour 
permit in hand (they still do that, don't they, Tray?)
{Yes, they do, Tray}, permission slips and liability 
waivers signed by parents, list of required equipment 
for each person going in a cave, without which they 
*don't go* -- period.  No more than 10 novices on a trip, 
including at least one adult over 25.  Require that all 
groups receive a briefing/lecture/orientation from 
the grotto before the trip, where the rules of the 
outing are laid down, conservation messages are drilled 
in, etc.  Parents should be encouraged to attend 
this session.  Instill the policy that the cave 
guide is responsible only for the in-cave experience, 
and his/her judgment must be 
followed without question.  Etc., etc....

If you are assured about how things work, and 
they are not, you have the upper hand.

I, too, have had groups that just wouldn't take 
no for an answer, forcing me to be outright rude, 
but this gal wins the prize.  Make sure the Council, 
and perhaps even the parents, know of your difficulties 
and concerns.  Most of all, document, document, cover 
your ass, and stand firm.

And let me (and Tray) know what happens.  There's 
probably something in this for all of us to learn.  
Good luck!

Alex
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Alex Sproul, NSS 8086RL/FE
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